DEBRA WINGER: Wow. And now you're talking to me.

DEBRA WINGER: Well, you know, that's where you really want to get the video sales going. I like to go for my Iran sales before my North American sales.

DEBRA WINGER: The Iranian film I saw was Delgaran. Have you seen that? I was on the jury at the Locarno Film Festival--it's this guy that made this trilogy of Iranian films, Delgaran is the third one. It's just--well, you know what's it's about because you've seen Iranian films. They're all about the same thing.

DEBRA WINGER: You sit there for a really long time and watch a car go from that side of the frame to the other, and that's Iranian film.

DEBRA WINGER: I think that there's something there, but you don't need to see it over and over. A little goes a long way.

DEBRA WINGER: (laughs) Although you're not sure that there's something there.

DEBRA WINGER: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a Japanese/Iranian co-production called Nobu--I know about all these films because I've been on the festival circuit and also having been a judge on that jury at Locarno. It's a smaller festival, they don't get many of the huge films.

DEBRA WINGER: It's on the Swiss Italian border. It's one of the first film festivals that ever existed. It's one of the longest running festivals. It has a very fine reputation and their reputation is for taking really really--what film festivals are supposed to be. Really the small independent films, they haven't been co-opted by the big studio picture which most festivals have been, or if they haven't been, they're trying to be.

DEBRA WINGER: It's so misguided. It's SO misguided. And I know where it comes from: it comes from the head of the festival thinking that he'll play with the big guys, like that's the way to do it and it's SO not the way to do it. It's where Cannes went wrong, it's where Toronto is going wrong. I mean, I got off the plane in Cannes this year and the streets were paved with posters from studio movies. Who cares about that? Why come to Cannes for that? You're going to be able to see all those films anyway--you're not going to be able to avoid them, so I don't get it. Obviously. Otherwise, why would everyone be wanting to do it?

DEBRA WINGER: That's funny. We followed him into there, which was kind of had good and bad things. Once a film has been in a town, it kind of wrecks the town. It doesn't even matter what the film is because, suddenly, everybody's hip and stores start doubling prices or whatever.

DEBRA WINGER: (laughs) That's pretty funny. No, they still laugh at those terms. You'd have to go to Holly Springs to know that they barely knew what was going on. The whole part of the town that we wanted to be in the pulse of, changes weekly anyway. Like the juke joint you went to the week before doesn't even exist, it's down the block in a new place. If you know that part of town, the music moves around. So there aren't like clubs stay around--well, Junior Kimbrough had a club that was around until it burned down--but it was this whole other sort of reality. But, yes, it helped to have someone there before us with the film commission and with stuff like that. And having produced it, I know exactly what it helped with and what it hurt with, but it helped with the police department. I like your theory that the words 'best boy' got laughed at already and we could move on from there. (laughs) But the actor's houses cost double what they went for on Cookie's Fortune.

DEBRA WINGER: Yeah. I wanted to get Angie Dickinson a bicycle--she said 'All I want is a bicycle, I don't need a car'--

DEBRA WINGER: It's the difference with who we work with.

DEBRA WINGER: Yeah. That movie didn't make it. Well, you know why? It was interesting to look at that, because I remember we mentioned that, there's another one that came to mind and it really helped actually. It helped Arliss and Jim remember that the most important thing in every film, whether you're adapting it from short stories or writing it from scratch--there must be a term that's not a baking term for that--but it's the narrative. The narrative drives the story and it's funny how you can lose sight of that. I think in a way Altman lost sight of the narrative on that film.

DEBRA WINGER: He's a pretty literate guy.

DEBRA WINGER: You should read Joe or Father and Son, those are novels. Big Bad Love is his only collection of short stories. But Joe and Father and Son are two of his finest novels. He was also a volunteer fireman and he wrote about that too, which was a pretty good book called Fire. But he has seven novels. And he's kind of--right now he's a writer's writer. I haven't run into an author that doesn't know about him. But a lot of people are just starting to find out about him, which is cool.

DEBRA WINGER: Yeah, that's exactly the stage he's at. Well, that's why we put him in the movie. He plays Arliss' father.

DEBRA WINGER: Oh you bet, baby. (laughs) No, that was where the free lunch came in. Because if the writer shows up on the set you don't give him lunch.

DEBRA WINGER: Right! Jim had to cook lunch. (laughs) No, I mean it's so funny when you've been on one side and now you're on the other. Producing for me was a joke! I was a complete pushover for anyone to the entire crew. Get me out in the world and I was like a piranha, you know? With the business people I had no problem (makes breaking bones noise). But with the crew I was a complete sap. (whining) "Whatever you want, just take it." "You don't want to work? Fine."

DEBRA WINGER: Consequently, they went overtime. They were incredible. We all felt triumphant when we finished the film in 32 days.

DEBRA WINGER: Yeah, that's the kiss of death right there.

DEBRA WINGER: Yeah.

DEBRA WINGER: O'Henry's good too. You could make some really good movies from his work.

DEBRA WINGER: Did we have problems with what?

DEBRA WINGER: We didn't secure any funding.

DEBRA WINGER: Yes. It's really our movie. In that respect, I didn't have to ask anyone for [funding], but, asking myself was pretty tough. No, we did it ourselves. We did it the old fashioned way.

DEBRA WINGER: Yeah! Exactly right. That's what you pay for. I guess what I have to say is, "Don't do it." I don't recommend it, because, having said that, the people that should do it will do it anyway, despite the fact that I've said not to do it. Only the ones who've said 'Oh, she said not to do it,' aren't going to do it, and they shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Is this clear?

DEBRA WINGER: Not for the faint hearted. Because there's a series of events that happened that led to our producing it in a different way than we originally had planned--originally we had wanted to use other people's money (laughs)--what a stupid thing, right? But, things didn't work out and we went ahead. Now there were a couple of things I would have set up differently that might have been a little thriftier. But, having said that, I'm happy with the way it looks, I wanted it not to look like a home made movie in that respect--I wanted it to have the soul of a home made movie though, but I didn't want it to have that look., if you know what I mean. I think that was a real goal and I also produced the soundtrack. At some point Arliss kept hearing this music in his head and we kept pursuing these artists. Some of them, we had to wait until they got off their tractors, you know because they played only at night and had been recorded once or twice by Fat Possum Records, we pursued them to the ends of the state and when it started coming together for the music and Tom Waits saw it and really liked it and wanted to write a couple of songs, I said 'I've got to produce an album because I want to buy this album'. So that became this whole other venture that will be released on None Such Records.

DEBRA WINGER: None Such. They do mostly--this is probably the wildest album that they'll be putting out so far. All along the way--oh, that was a weird picture [you just took].

DEBRA WINGER: I'll end up looking like what's-his-face, Ben Stiller, in that movie, (pauses) that movie which shall remain nameless. All along the way I thought, 'Okay, this is crazy, I worked how many years to make this money that Arliss and I have saved. We have a family. This is in a way the insurance not to have to work. But it also became about our lives: this is what we love to do. Don't we want to do it without someone else telling us how to do it? We know how to do it. We don't need someone else telling us how to do it. And that's what money unfortunately corrupts: your ability to say 'No, that isn't exactly what we had in mind right here." Arliss had a definite idea about real time in certain aspects of this film. If you look at it as a piece of music as two parts, before the accident and after the accident--because I, as a producer say, because I come from a very orthodox background of studio movies and cutting, you know--you don't cut on the same person, you have to cut away!--things like that, and there was a certain point where I said, 'We need to tighten up this first part. I can feel a little bit [anxious] in my seat." And he taught me if you don't have that, if you don't feel brave enough to let your audience get a little uncomfortable, there's nothing to go to later.

DEBRA WINGER: I felt like--we know [the lead] has a problem with drink. Can we show him drunk one less time, or something. And then I started to think about what it would have been like to live with that guy. And if you don't feel what it's like to have to put up with that guy, you'll never understand Marilyn's story or his mother's point-of-view. You'll have to be really a little sick of him--he's a real fuck up--and if you only show it the way it's usually shown in movies, it's either funny or entertaining.

DEBRA WINGER: Writers often have a 'drunk' that is different than anyone else's. That's why it's so insidious and so damning. First of all, because they can write when they're drinking--or they think they can. A lot of writer will tell me--and this is the latest one I've heard--you drink while you're thinking about what to write, but when you actually write, you sober up. (Laughs)

DEBRA WINGER: Go out! Get drunk! Then get sober and then write the article! Yeah, but Arliss definitely had the physical thing--these are guys that drive around drunk, basically drinking you know, much beer.

DEBRA WINGER: You liked that brand, huh? We didn't want to have any product placements.

DEBRA WINGER: Fuck product placement, man!

DEBRA WINGER: I hate that! Do you know that you have somebody on your fucking payroll and his title is 'product placement guy'? And you thought 'best boy' was bad… Product placement guy (Laughs) Can you imagine if that was your life? Talk about drinking. (laughs). Place this product, brother.

DEBRA WINGER: Just as well, we didn't have that guy. We said 'place this product where the sun don't shine." So that's why you saw Premium beer.

DEBRA WINGER: It's so great that you actually got that! You have to know Patsy Cline to know how great that is. Arliss just would not settle for less, let me tell you. You know, dead people make a lot of money. I mean the record companies--you want to get into a business, get into synch licenses. Dead people. That's the business! But to have it resolve and have Patsy Cline's "Crazy"--you hear it so many times it makes you crazy--but I loved that he was able to. You were able to understand everything about his consciousness and his awareness and the accident and how it slows time down and speeds it up and how weird it is to go into shock or to have a blow to your head.

DEBRA WINGER: Definitely someone would have said (mimicking studio exec) "You can't do that!"

DEBRA WINGER: Cool. How timely too, huh?

DEBRA WINGER: They made that into a movie?

DEBRA WINGER: Really? Who did that?

DEBRA WINGER: (excitedly) Oh! I met him! That's the movie he did?

DEBRA WINGER: Cool. I just got it that it was Arthur Miller. I knew it was called Focus, but I didn't realize that it was based on the Arthur Miller story.

DEBRA WINGER: No, he's really sweet, but we talked about me. (laughs) Kidding. You don't compete with the finest. (laughs) Egomaniacs! We were at a table talking about something else.

DEBRA WINGER: I just came from San Francisco and that was the best audience we've had. So I think that if you say that then you also have to throw in there that 50% of this nation's greatest writers come from the south. South of the Mason Dixon line, that is. You have to basically toss in Flannery O'Conner, Tennessee Williams, Falkner, Eudora Welty and so on. There's a tradition and a history to the south that has the formation of our nation and the most unbelievable occurrences happening in the south. You've got the whole civil rights movements emanating from the south, you've got the music that came out of the south that is the core of our current music, so for me that thinking comes out of having Dukes of Hazzard thrown in your face: that the south is a bunch of twangy people that I can't understand. So this is, hopefully, part of the movement to restore the south to its proper and rightful place in our nation… which is huge and pervasive. It's not about Texas--I'm not saying Texas doesn't have it's own unique history--but the south has this at its core.

DEBRA WINGER: Yeah, but let me help you. Do you remember that scene in the bar when he's talking to his friend in the bar and he's very drunk, but he's talking about The Iliad? And he's talking about Virgil and Homer. I love that scene for what you're talking about. Yes, he's a southern writer, yes he's drunk but there's an intelligence there. And hopefully the film comes to something at the end where he goes to Jo and has an experience with his family and there might be a resolution there.

DEBRA WINGER: Right. One that might not involve as much alcohol in his life. I think that we definitely deal with that issue and don't ignore it, the issue of drink, but that's not where it ends. I just think that what the fear is that you think alcoholic writer or whatever and you forget the intelligence that can be present. I mean so many people just write off someone who drinks as one thing. I love that scene in the bar where he's smashed but he's talking about Homer. He's so passionate about it, it's killing him. It's burning inside of him. Does that help?

CHRIS NEUMER: Yeah, it does.

DEBRA WINGER: (laughs) It didn't even go where you were going…

DEBRA WINGER: My son thinks it is. He wants to do the video game for Big Bad Love.

DEBRA WINGER: Yeah, the big question is: is it a dream or isn't it?

DEBRA WINGER: I loved that story.

DEBRA WINGER: Oh God no. Wasn't it already a movie though? They did it with, uh--it was done in the '60's, right? I don't want to say who it is and be wrong.

DEBRA WINGER: Oh my God! They're redoing that? Stop that at all costs!

DEBRA WINGER: (laughs) Did that come out? No, they're still making it.

DEBRA WINGER: C'mon. This is funny. You have to take this with a grain of salt and, you know what, it keeps the studios busy. So I think that's important so that the rest of us can make our movies.

DEBRA WINGER: You know what, until--no, I promised myself I wasn't going to do this, I was going to come out and be a good girl. (smiles) I think it's wonderful that they have their independent wings. (laughs)

DEBRA WINGER: (laughs) No. But, you give two people a hundred bucks and tell them to go out and buy a hat… you can finish the rest of that.

DEBRA WINGER: (laughs) Okay.

DEBRA WINGER: Well, because we were going back and forth in terms of power--I mean when I think about it in those terms, it didn't feel like when we were shooting, but often, as it is in life, when you look back, when you're telling the story of it, you use words like that, but at the time, it was just life. You're not thinking 'Wow, I feel powerful right now!', you're going 'Hey, asshole, do it my way!". But it was constantly balancing because it was his vision, it wasn't my vision, my whole job as I understood it was to allow him to put that vision on film. So as long as I stayed clear about that, it wasn't about anything else. Sometimes I had to say, "I don't know how I'm going to get you to do that at the price that we can do it for." Then we'd talk about it together. So we had the same aim, but we didn't have the friction that you'd normally have when a producers going, 'You can't do that because that's stupid!" His vision was what I wanted up there. That was what I was dying to get up there, so no problem.

CHRIS NEUMER: That seems like the best of all possible worlds.

DEBRA WINGER: And I think if you talk to directors with actors and producers with directors they work with them over and over again, Scorsese and DeNiro work together because of these reasons, it's the right kind of friction. The friction is about the work. When Arliss and I came up against each other it was to make something better and it was to hash something out, to get it to where somebody was being tough in that moment. Like I was saying, 'that scene isn't as good as all the others'.

DEBRA WINGER: What we had. Like I felt sometimes that we were tired, he was tired, we had shot maybe 10 scenes that day and we were going at something, it was my job to say, 'Let's take an hour and rewrite and try to get this exactly right" or 'Let's rehearse this more to get it exactly right. That's my job even though we're moving at this unbelievable clip. And there were times when I would be like 'Let's just do it' and he'd say, 'No, let's get this right'. So luckily we didn't tank at the same time, which I think would be really dangerous, although we had a great crew so hopefully somebody would have come up with something and yelled, "Don't tank!"

DEBRA WINGER: I wish he was here because we haven't been able to bask at all. I'm doing this tour because he's doing a play. And I'm going home going, 'He said…' And it doesn't sound the same so, can I take this tape?

DEBRA WINGER: (laughs) Just because it would make him feel nice to hear somebody acknowledge it, it's not what he needed but it's great to hear it. I would say that the only thing I find frustrating about the fact that we happened to be married and did this was that if I had just been his producer and I was out here on the road I'd be saying 'it's so accomplished'. That's the word that comes to my mind and it came to my mind, I swear, watching it for the first time on a screen after seeing it a million times on the AVID, but putting it up, when the lights went up and even though I was in it and I was there for every day of the shoot, I've lived and breathed it for a year and a half now, the first word to come to my mind was 'what an accomplishment'. It's so accomplished for a first director and I would say even if I didn't know him.

DEBRA WINGER: I use the analogy as a wife, you marry a guy and want to have a family and you think 'I love him, I want to be with him. He's my boyfriend and I want to marry him.'

DEBRA WINGER: (laughs) You tease! And then you think, 'I'm going to have a family with this guy, I'll bet he'll be a good father.' It's like a leap of faith. Then you have a kid and you watch this father be born and you go, 'I knew it, but still, I'm so relieved!' because there's this moment where I knew Arliss had it in him. I knew it from everything he'd ever said. We'd done stage together where he virtually directed me, every time we worked, I said, 'God, should he direct'. I knew he could write because I'd read his writing. So, I had all that going in as producer, but seeing him do it was so much more. I have to agree with you, it's very accomplished, I always knew he could do it and I'm glad he finally got the chance. I hope he gets the chance again with someone else producing. I agree with you, that's what I'm saying.